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| Your Opinion on Finishes http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=5124 |
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| Author: | SimonF [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:58 am ] |
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Good Afternoon Everyone, I was wondering if I could elicit a few opinions on the finish topic. I am pursuing a goal of building guitars professionally - so I want to be putting a good quality finish on my guitars. So keep this in mind when you offer your opinions. I have ruled out Behlen Rock Hard Varnish - while a beautiful finish, I don't like the fact that it imparts a yellow hue - great for the vintage look, tho'. I have rule out polyester and polyurethane - at least for the next few years. I think I have ruled out french polish - although beautiful, it is not as practical for a steel-string. Do you all agree? If you all think it would be suitable - this would probably be my preferred method, however. Realistically, this leaves me with nitro or KTM-9. I have used KTM-9 over System 3 epoxy. I have an awesome HVLP spray system (Fuji Q4) and have managed to get a wonderfully level surface. I thought it looked great but then I started hearing some negative reviews from some of the folks on this forum. Some have commented that a number of well-known and respected luthiers use KTM-9 and their finishes didn't look as good as nitro. Has anyone ever seen a Doolin or Sheppard upclose? I believe they probably do as good a job with waterbornes as anyone - Does it simply not compare with a well-done nitro finish? Their guitars look amazing in pictures (dreamguitars, etc...). If you don't think their finishes look as good - then I will switch to nitro. It is very important for me to be putting the best finish i can on my instruments. My last question regards satin and gloss. I really like and appreciate the beauty of a lowden finish. My last guitar was finished this way and it felt incredible (especially on the neck). The gloss KTM-9 on a previous guitar felt nowhere as comfortable as the satin. Do all gloss finishes feel "sticky" (for lack of a better word)? I don't like the satin neck and gloss body look - so that isn't an option for me. Is french polish also "sticky". I know I have a lot of questions. Your opinions on any of them would be awesome and tremendously helpful to me. Thanks and God bless, Simon |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:10 am ] |
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basic finish KTM 9 gloss or satin I have to tell you I find this finish look as good as nitro to my eyes but it is not as hard Optional French polish It may not be as hard as other finishes but the truth is a finishes prime job is to protect the wood from contaminats moisture mainly. Second is dent control and shellac does as good of job on the primemary job as any, and is probably the best tonal option. Optional French polish/ KTM9 hybrid French polished top and ktm 9 Gloss or satin back and sides. This is good choice for protection from belt buckels and such Optional Nitro Gloss or satin optional French polish/ nitro hybrid same as above These are my optional finishes I offer |
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| Author: | SimonF [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:19 am ] |
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I thought I would also mention this about satin / semi-gloss finishes. I have always associated high gloss with "cheap" nice furntiture. Usually, the most beautiful woods on gallery quality furniture have a satin finish. One very talented woodworker by the name of Mats Fogelvik builds amazing stuff and always seems to use a satin finish. (Mats posts regularly on the SCM/MiniMax forum I am a part of). Check out his website for pictures of his work. I personally think a gloss finish would not look as good on his pieces. http://www.fogelvik.com/ I'm curious...What are your reasons for either not liking or using a satin finish? Thanks again, Simon |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:30 am ] |
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Fact! 98% of my clients want a high gloss finish. less than 3% will order with satin. my guess is your market will prove this to be the case as well. |
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| Author: | Graham Steward [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:39 am ] |
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I think that if you have the proper equipment for Nitro then go with that. I'm about to give KTM-9 a try simply because I don't have an explosion proof fan. If I'm unable to get good enough, for me, results from KTM-9 then I'll have to come up with the $500 or so that a explosion proof fan will cost. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:42 am ] |
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[QUOTE=SimonF] Do all gloss finishes feel "sticky" (for lack of a better word)? I don't like the satin neck and gloss body look - so that isn't an option for me. Is french polish also "sticky". [/QUOTE] If not properly cured they will feel sticky. I have finished many with nitro and also KTM9 and I have no issues if properly cured. Many of my client like FP necks for this reason but they will set down with one of my guitars that has KTM9 and play it and never complain. Some people do have such high ph skin types that they may have issues, but in general if the neck is sticky the finish is undercured mostly because it was applied to thick,in poor humidity conditions or was not allowed to cure. |
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| Author: | Robbie O'Brien [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:28 am ] |
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I am curious as to why you have ruled out urethane but not lacquer? They require basically the same set up of space and equipment. In my opinion the urethane makes a superior finish to lacquer and you said you have a goal of doing this professionally. Why not master and go with the best finish you can right from the start? I also agree with Michael about sheen. If you have a gloss and a satin guitar side by side in a store the tendencey is for the client to reach for the high gloss one first. Biased? yes, but you gotta go with what the client wants. Whatever finish you choose to go with, master it, learn the pros and cons, before completely discarding it for another. This could lead to much frustration. Good luck and happy finishing |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:35 am ] |
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[QUOTE=SimonF] I thought I would also mention this about satin / semi-gloss finishes. I have always associated high gloss with "cheap" nice furntiture. Usually, the most beautiful woods on gallery quality furniture have a satin finish. One very talented woodworker by the name of Mats Fogelvik builds amazing stuff and always seems to use a satin finish. (Mats posts regularly on the SCM/MiniMax forum I am a part of). [/QUOTE] Two different worlds....apples and oranges, guitars and furniture, two different markets. |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:49 am ] |
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Its a funny thing the Market, over here the reverse is True, most of the real top end makes use a Satin or Matt Finish, in fact Lowden spray Lacquer and they rub it down to a matt. I have known people import guitars from the USA or Elsewhere and then take wire wool to them. I think Colin cames across a similiar story. It would be interesting to know what proportion of Satin to Gloss Models the large American Makers import. I get around the Local acoustic clubs a bit and see a lot of Matt Finished Taylors and Martins. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:12 am ] |
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Here in the US people associate satin finish with low-end guitars, where they use it because it doesn't look too bad if it's not level. I'm really 'down' on nitro myself. First there are all the hazards of using the stuff: check with your local fire people about what it would take to set up a _legal_ spray booth for nitro. My main beef, though, is with the fact that it's not chemically stable. It yellows and shrinks and cracks because it's the 'little brother to a high explosive', so it dissappears over time, and releases nitrates as it does. Why would you build a guitar that can have a useful life of 200 years and put a fifty year finish on it? I'm not sure that KTM-9, or any other waterborn, is even a fifty year finish. They haven't been around long enough. I do know that the water borns I've tried have done well to hold up for two or three years in use, and most of them looked terrible long before that. That was, I admit, a while ago. Once bitten, twice shy. I use either French polish or Rockhard varnish. No, neither of those is perfect, either: they're just better than the alternatives for me. In fact, there is no _good_ finish, there are just choices between the bad features that you can or can't put up with in your application. At least shellac gets _better_ with age. |
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| Author: | SimonF [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:54 am ] |
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Thanks everyone for your responses - greatly appreciated. To be quite honest...my workspace is limited and I would prefer not having to go the "dangerous" route if possible - which is why I have used KTM-9. If nitro seems like my best option...then I will also consider a urethane finish as Robbie suggested. As regards gloss being sticky - every gloss neck I have ever played has felt sticky to me (Taylor's polyurethane included). Maybe a better way to say it would be smooth but with a high friciton coefficient. From what I have gathered - most people don't mind the gloss neck then, correct? Quite honestly, I would love to use French polish. The time it takes to French polish is not a deterrent for me. Should I not entertain this option as a steel string builder? Does a high quality french polish feel the same as regular lacquer or urethane? Would I be asking for trouble with this finish? Thanks again for the help guys. I really appreciate it. Simon |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:03 am ] |
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FP necks are super fast feeling when done right. as far as the feel you get playing gloss necks you may be one of those with the high skin ph I am not sure why you don’t think FP to be appropriate for ss guitars other than the softness or pick scratching. The softness issue is just as true on classical but is the preferred. I most defiantly offer FP. your most discriminating clients will ask for at least the top to be FP |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:07 am ] |
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Simon A lot of builders over here use an Oil finish on the neck even if they lacquer the body, something like Truoil makes a wonderful finish for a neck. I don't know the market in the USA, but in the UK French Polish is an accepted finish for Steel Strings, certainly not as tugh as Lacquer, but easy to repair dings, although often here people come from the Willy Nelson School, they like there guitars to look like they have been played. I guess every market is different and you would need to talk to your target market to see what they want. Al I share your opinion of Nitro, You would be hard pressed to find a proffesional shop that would spray Nitro for you over here, most of the Pros use Waterbase or Poly. I think it is important to support the development of the alternative products, cause sooner or later Nitro will disapear, when all of the chemical companies run for cover. |
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| Author: | SimonF [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:12 am ] |
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I don't really have a problem with gloss necks - it is just satin feels so much better in my opinion. Regarding the french polish. I really would like to use it but I have heard a lot of negatives associated with it on steel strings. Things such as they are very easily scratched and if you get any sweat or water on it - the finish clouds. Michael...do you feel it is a good finish to use? Obviously, you would tell your customers they can't treat it like a Taylor. I am very interested in your opinion and anyone else who french polishes their instruments. Once again, you all are being most helpful. God bless, Simon |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:24 am ] |
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Once the shellac is set the only thing that will discolor or haze Fernch polish is water standing on it for a long time or a solvent. I am not sure who is telling you this, but the real picky peformer prefer FP top if not the whole guitar. Yes it will pick scratch but so will nito or any other, just to differnt degrees. However with French polish the owner himself can repair the scratches in 15 min to an hour with no sanding or other finish required. you can not say that with nito or other hard finishes. If someone sweets on their French polished guitar and does not clean off before putting it away, the shame on them. They may then get a water abd salt ring but it too is easy to repair. You can bring me a guitar with the FP finish scaped off to or near to the wood in a 4" square area and I can have it better than new that day. It sounds to me that who ever has brought up the bad things you mentioned about FP finished guitars either was guessing about it's durability or messed one up and did not know that it was easy to repair. I mean real easy. That does not mean there is no elbow grease involved. There is, and a very basic understanding of shellac. Everyone that orders a FP finished guitar from me gets a quick class or tutorial on FP touch up. I have never had anyone wreck one that they touched up. So I have to say that for the typical plunker out there that my drop some beer or sweet on their guitar, French polish is better over all because the repair bill will be much much cheaper. |
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| Author: | mikev [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:51 pm ] |
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I'm no finish expert, only one dulcimer with KTM9 over system3 epoxy, but I do have a question about Nitro... I keep reading " I need to get an explosion proof fan", or "spray it in your yard as long as your neighbors don't complain". And yeh, I hear lots of don't breith the stuff. Are we advocating spraying it into the air without filtration? I know some are not, but it seems to me many are. Just get it away from you and we're ok with it. Shut me up if I'm wrong, but isn't it a pollutant and we should only spray it if we have the proper filtration system which is also maintained correctly. If you throw your trash on my yard, its still trash and its still ugly... off the soap box now.. |
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| Author: | SimonF [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:46 pm ] |
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Michael, You have been very helpful...Thank you 
Mikev, I hope no one here is advocating that you spray it ALOT outside without filtration. As a biochemist in my day job, I can tell you that this VOC's aren't good for the environment - however, if you spray nitro outside once in a great while - no harm done. For a business or individual who finishes often - you should definitely feel guilty if you do this - I'd imagine it is also against OSHA rules. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:29 pm ] |
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Thanks Simon for posting this very important question about one of the most crucial tasks in guitar making! I'm also new at this and would like to thank Michael for simplifying it so easily. FP was what i had in mind for my second and third build and Michael just gave me the answers i needed. the only thing left for me to do will be to get more information on the how to. Great thread guys!  Thanks
Serge |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:47 pm ] |
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The health issues for nitro far out way environmental issues. The vapors are highly flammable but the solids are not highly leaching. That is not to say there are no environmental issues. However if vented safely to atmosphere you are not breaking any national laws at the rate produced finishing guitars. Some local laws may prohibit commercial use in some areas. Outside of the fire hazard, the real big health issue is that the solvent it is quickly adsorbed into the blood stream through the skin or lungs, and is both toxic and carcinogenic. On the other hand environmentally it would take a very large amount to do damage to ground water by leaching or to the atmosphere due to its high flash off and dispersal rate. Every time we have a major finish topic we get those that just can't understand why we use a product that has health and environmental risk. I am pointing no fingers at anyone mind you, so please understand I am only expressing a point of view. That said, some have taken the position that it is just wrong to use this product or an other. To those I have to say, "if you take everything that is unsafe at every degree out of your building and finishing process you are left with only one very large stack of raw wood. So now what do you do with it? You can't cut it, you can't plane it, you can't shape it, you can't glue it, heck, some you can't even smell it with out breaking out in a rash. I know I am being over dramatic here, but my point is it is, it is good to remind everyone of the dangers related to our trade or hobby with the meaning to help them stay safe when they are executing this craft. Each of us has to evaluate the risks and the needs for PPE (personal protective equipment) and take the proper precautions. But to condemn a product because it comes with safety issues and declare it un-worth of use based solely on it's related environmental or health hazards is as nearsighted as using it without taking the proper safety measures. After all without human kind taking acceptable risk the moon would still be cheese and guitars would still be trees  Sorry about that tree hugers I just could not pass that line up
Ok I will climb down now  |
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| Author: | Dave Anderson [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:16 pm ] |
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I spray nitro occasionally out in my garage with a respirator and fans with no problems whatsoever. I am very careful not to breathe it and love the way it looks.I may try ktm9 in the future but for now it's nitro. |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:30 pm ] |
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Hurrah for French polish! Oh and "musical instrument varnish #2", you know, the stuff that comes in an old coffee jar with a hand written label.
Colin |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:35 pm ] |
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I think you shouldn't make too light of the enviromental impact, ok the impact is lower, but it has the potential to affect more people. That said I don't condem Nitro, I used to work in the chemical industry, and have seen with the correct precautions and procedures, very dangerous materials can be handled, the problem comes when you strip away the safe guards. I think Mikes point is a valid one, and we should not ignore the problems because we like to use a finish, lets face it lead was a great paint additive and abestos a great fire barrier, but we wouldn't use them today, because the risk out ways the benefit. So I think it is wise to know the risk both personal and enviromental. Don't ever let anyone tell you that Nitro is Safe even in the best and most controlled enviroments things go wrong. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:26 am ] |
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Oh please understand I am making no light of enviro safety. Any levity I imparted in my post was to lighten the tone for ease of discussion and inject some humor into what can be a touchy subject with some. I am a true environment loving person. The fact that nitro can damage the environment if spilled in a large volume is very real My point is that to discount the benefits of any product, in any industry, solely on its MSD report in only part of the story. I myself do not use nito unless specified by the client, because I believe there are good saver alternatives, but in the end I am not building guitars for myself. I am a businessman servicing a market. I realize there are benefits and drawbacks to every chemical we use. Everyone needs to decide for them self if nitro work for them. If they want to take the necessary precautions to deal with the product safely. It is just plain dumb to use nitro without the necessary precautions. But is equally business dumb not to evaluate both the hazard and the benefit. |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:01 am ] |
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No Arguement at all with that Michael 
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:09 am ] |
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There is a difference between the glossy finish of one of the best hand made guitars and the shiny finish of the mass produced cheap guitars. The good finish is perfectly flat with no wavyness to it at all. The cheaper finishes has a rippley look to them. They are glossy but not smooth. I've seen KTM-9 guitars that I couldn't tell from Nitro guitars. Adding a drop of amber dye to the mix seems to help. I've don't have spray equipment and I couldn't get brushing KTM-9 to work for me so I went back to french polishing. French polish is softer than nitro and KTM-9 but it seems to get harder with time. WHen I first finished my latest two guitars them seemed very sensitive to fingers and scratches. Now, four months later, the finish is very hard and resistant to normal everyday use. I have no problem with french polishing steel string guitars. The gloss has a different character than Nitro or KTM-9. It isn't less glossy; it's just different. A good french polish finish looks like a bottomless pit. You get a feeling that you could dive into the finish and fall forever without reaching the wood surface. Since I only make 2-3 insruments a year, I can afford to french polish them all and, while my finishes are still not very good, they're getting better all the time. |
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